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Dalaran Senate Meeting: April 2nd, 36 LC
The following is a written record of the Magus Senate of Dalaran session from April 2nd, 26 LC. Record Zanbor Emerson: This session will come to order. Right. Let’s start with what happened Tuesday. Does anyone want to go over that? Hellissa Pyrestaff: Is Alazea not here? Zanbor Emerson: I don't see her. Hellissa Pyrestaff: Sure, I can then. The event on Tuesday was talking about where the next dig might be and what topics our history department will be covering next. We decided on Pandaren, Mogu, and maybe Trolls. We'll be talking to Senator Gao about getting out there and finding some neat stuff. Zanbor Emerson: The Dwarven Vanguard has invited us to their festival. They have another event planned for this Monday. Those who enjoy drinking and or dwarves should plan on attending. On Friday there was a debate held. Senator Haltring can tell us more. Elberich Haltring: It was a debate regarding what is considered to be civilized behavior in Dalaran. There were some good points raised and I look forward to holding future debates. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. That concludes this week. Let’s go over the next week. Senator Liridian has a lecture coming up on fel magic and its dangers. I encourage everyone to attend. It will be Sunday. I am not sure where it will be held yet. Senator Haltring you have something coming up? Elberich Haltring: Mm, details are still being arranged. An announcement will be posted when all is decided. Zanbor Emerson: How very vague. Thank you. Professor Emberstar has a history lecture coming up on Thursday. The topic is to be announced closer to the day. Hellissa Pyrestaff: Academics has some new projects coming out that I wanted to discuss. I'm also reclaiming Farel for a while for them. We'll be hosting some competitions that are based in magic and spell casting. There's some other projects in the works, but the games are the important thing. Competitions, rather. Such as summoning and so on. Any questions? Great. Zanbor Emerson: Does anyone else wish to speak? Senator Haltring. Elberich Haltring: Chancellor, this evening I would like to announce that I am doing a small shuffle within the Ministry of Justice. Senator Dawnstrike will be appointed as the Director of the Violet Eye in order to allow Senator Hale to continue his duties as Deputy Minister of Justice. Thank you that is all Zanbor Emerson: Anyone else wish to speak tonight while the floor is still open? Vanidicus Alexander: I would. Zanbor Emerson: Senator Alexander. Vanidicus Alexander: The ministry of war is still awarding bounties for information regarding enemy activity. If anyone spends time on Draenor and has workable infermation t'pass to the Ministry, please do not hesitate to do so. That is all. Zanbor Emerson: Does anyone else wish to speak? Senator Shadesong. Oliviaxi Shadesong: I'll make this short and sweet. I love you majestic fucking gryphons. Keep flying. Zanbor Emerson: Right. Thank you. Open floor is now closed. We move on to Seantor Haltring's bill. Senator Haltring please introduce your legislation. Elberich Haltring: Thank you once again, Chancellor. Tonight I am present the "CIVILIZED PERSONS ACT". This act is designed to ensure Dalaran's standards are held above the rest, and to ensure that we outlaw what some may consider to be "barbaric" and "inhumane" practices. I shall begin with the immediate reading of the bill for the Senate: Be it enacted by the Magus Senate of Dalaran by and with the advice and consent of the Representatives and Senators in this present Senate assembled and by the authority of the same as follows: Section one: Any form of slavery shall be prohibited within the Magocracy of Dalaran, which includes: the enslavement of sentient beings(a) the only exception is in the case of Demons summoned by those permitted; and the selling or purchasing of sentient beings. Section two: Honor Duels shall be prohibited within the Magocracy of Dalaran, which includes: (1) those for the settlement of disputes, be they personal, judicial, or otherwise. Section three: Cannibalism of any kind shall be prohibited, including for the purpose of the ceremonial eating of sentient flesh or parts of the sentient being's body for magical or religious purposes, as to acquire the power or skill of a person recently killed. Section four: Sacrifice of any kind shall be prohibited within the Magocracy of Dalaran, including sacrifice for the purpose of religious celebration, such as (a) the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage. And of course if this bill is passed the Honor Duel Act shall be repealed. Zanbor Emerson: We move on to debate. I will call on members and then you can answer them in turn. Senator Shadesong. Oliviaxi Shadesong: I'll do my best to be both brief and complete with my words. To begin, I have no problem with much of this bill. The vast majority of it, while likely not problems plaguing our society, are certainly things that we ought to outlaw formally. That having been said, I am of the opinion that one subsect of the bill ought to be struck down, and another edited for the purpose of clarity. I strongly deny that an Honor Duel between aggrieved parties is 'barbaric', and that this bill includes a prohibition on them saddens me, as it takes an otherwise simply remedied bill into one that needs a vote of 'no', at least until such time that the provision is removed. To put it simply, there is no reason that two individuals of roughly equitable skill-levels choosing of their own volition to resolve a conflict through combat ought to be considered 'barbaric'. As I went on at length, apparently fruitlessly, during the open forum on civility, we are all, at the core, creatures of emotion and passions. We can strive to rational thought, and even prize logical thinking, but to cut out the heart that compels us and moves us does our collective species' a great disservice, especially considering it was not cold hard logic that saved Azeroth from Re-Origination. Combat between two aggrieved parties as a means of airing grievances and solving disputes by lancing what is a blister of rage is no more 'barbaric' than two comrades sparring to hone their skills. If emotion driving action equals barbarism, then clearly we have failed to learn that lesson. Secondly, and more easily said, I would move to have 'sentient' altered to 'sapient' in the first component of the bill. Many of my animal companions, of which I have probably entirely too many, are sentient. Most animals possess a degree of it. Their ability to feel emotion makes grants them this. But they lack meta-cognitive ability, and that is the key component that differentiates a 'thinking thing' from a beast. I presume we aren't taking questions, and if that is the case, thank you for allowing me to speak. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. Senator Arc is next. Farel Arc: Good evening. I would first like to say that I agree with Ms. Shadesong's view on honor duels and believe they are a much greater alternative than having disputes settled secretly with violence. I would also like to address the sacrificial portion of the bill which states that animals, plants, and objects cannot be offered as tribute to other deities. I agree that in the case of many voodoo, demonology, and necromantic practices the sacrifice of blood or flesh is used often. However, there are many ritual practices done by shamans, druids, and some arcanists which require the use of objects or plants as a material component. Are all of these components sacrificed to a deity? Perhaps not, though it's difficult to say. I believe the sacrificial portion of the bill should be refined to the use of blood and flesh as these are often if not always used in association with a restricted magic. Additionally, I would like to agree with Ms. Oliviaxi that many entities beyond those which are humanoid possess some form of sentience; however, we cannot be expected to enforce a law which prohibits the use of animals for labor or travel. Laeran Dawnstrike: Chancellor, point of privilege. Zanbor Emerson: Yes? Laeran Dawnstrike: May we halt all transportation and consumption of food and drink on the other side of the chamber. It is distracting. Zanbor Emerson: Please cease with the cookies. Thank you Senator Arc. Senator Alexander is next on the speaking list. Elberich Haltring: Chancellor, one moment. Zanbor Emerson: Yes? Elberich Haltring: I would like to note that when we refer to plant life, we mean sentient plant life. That will be amended at once. Vanidicus Alexander: Alright good...that takes care of one of my minor points. Zanbor Emerson: Would you like to make a friendly amendment? Elberich Haltring: Aye. Vanidicus Alexander: May I begin, sirs? Zanbor Emerson: One moment. Please state your amendment. Elberich Haltring: I wish to amend all objects of sacrifice in the bill to refer to sentient objects. I ask that this be accepted with unanimous consent. Zanbor Emerson: Any objections? Hearing none the amendment is approved as friendly. Senator Alexander you have the floor. Vanidicus Alexander: Thank you, sir. On the matter of sacrifice, I would like to suggest that we take that amendment and add it specifically into the law of magic regarding blood magic. As in the existing state of the law, it does not specifically forbid sacrifice as such and primarily deals with blood sources. I feel it would be appropriate to add there. In addition to that, I would like to commend on honor duels. Taking some of Mage-Captain Shadesong's points, not every dispute needs to be settled in court nor should it. I would like to know how this law will affect non-judiciary punitive measures proscribed by officers of the ministry of war, as described in the submitted updated set of formalized military regulation submitted to you some days ago. Elberich Haltring: Point of information, Mister Speaker. Zanbor Emerson: Will the senator yield for a point of information? Vanidicus Alexander: I will. Speak. Elberich Haltring: I believe it would be best to amend the Forbidden Magics Act, specifically the section referring to Blood Magic; however, I would also be in favor of adding an amendment in this specific section to outlaw the use of sacrifice for magical means. Vanidicus Alexander: Great. Elberich Haltring: Now, then to your second question regarding the Ministry of War. In regards to the resolution of disputes we here value logic and a good solid argument like we are seeing here tonight. Matters of conflict that try to be resolved using combat as a method of resolution don't lead to anything actually being resolved. Often times they lead to further disputes in a court, or a moderated setting anyway. Now, this is not to say that any combat is being outlawed - the Ministry of War may still employ Sparring in order to hone one's skills, but we should not be using emotion and a display of raw combat power to try and solve an argument. Vanidicus Alexander: Then I am satisfied. So long as the military rights are not impeded on. Oliviaxi Shadesong: Point of Order, the bill was improperly introduced and as such is not ready to be voted on according to Senate proceeduring regarding the proper time between the introduction of a bill and it’s voting. Zanbor Emerson: No vote will be held on the legislation before us tonight. Debate can continue if the body wishes it. Senator Brisby was next on the speaking list. Do you wish to continue? Hellissa Pyrestaff: Yes. Doing my best to stay brief, I'd like to call attention to the last few honor duels we've had. Between Gehlnarine and Matiff, which as far as I recall, ended up with Matiff running away and hiding in exile. Then Gehlnarine and Bryn, which- had a failure to disclose she was -pregnant- at the time, then Gehlnarine and Oli, which, as you can see, there is a pattern here. And yet, none of those things solved a thing. Nothing. Nothing was solved. Honor wasn't established. People can say they were able to get out aggression, but the same thing can be accomplished by sparring, which, is completely legal. Honor duels are a pointless waste of resources, and have -only- ended badly. And apparently only involve Gehlnarine and whoever he's mad at that day. While some of the wording of the other sections is strange, all have a good intent, which is to make Dalaran a better place for children to grow, and people to be educated. I think the other things were covered, but for the record, the last blood-mage class I held went well and I'd like that law not to change. It was very nice. That's it. Oliviaxi Shadesong: Point of Clarification, if the speaker will allow it. Zanbor Emerson: I will. Oliviaxi Shadesong: I can only speak for the Honor Duel between myself and Minister Liridian, but I can state completely seriously that the duel between he and myself was infinitely more efficient at airing out our grievances that any degree of third-parties coming in to sort out an issue they would have known nothing about. Both of us having spent our rage, I can sincerely report that he and I have come to an understanding of where we both had made a mistake in our understanding of the other's views and opinions. Zanbor Emerson: Senator Dawnstrike is next on the speakers list. Laeran Dawnstrike: Senators. To begin with, I wish to second Senator Pyrestaff's arguments concerning the history of honor duels within this city. They have, to date, been highly destructive, and have proven only to be a method by which recidivist individuals can use violence to air their grievances. It is true that as mortals, we have our imperfections and our failings; while there is much about our mortality that gives us strength, the use of violence to settle disputes is not one of them. Our laws, our judiciary, our very civilization is founded to give us a means by which to live our lives in stability, resorting to violence only when necessary. To say that such a practice should remain legal solely because 'we are imperfect' is a specious argument. Why not legalize theft, murder, assault, or rape. Why not legalize human sacrifice if all parties are 'willing'? Vanidicus Alexander: Point of order. Zanbor Emerson: Yes? Vanidicus Alexander: Slippery slope fallacy. Keeping honor duels legal doesn't mean we're gonna go about murderin' folks an' leagalizing rape. Keep it reasonable please. Zanbor Emerson: Not a point for the chair. Please continue Senator Dawnstrike. Laeran Dawnstrike: Moreover, for a single individual to come forth and say 'it worked for me' is all well and good. But it is -not- indicative of the norm. It is an anecdote, and not a basis for policy. Oliviaxi Shadesong: Point of Clarification, if the speaker will allow. Laeran Dawnstrike: If people have nonjudicial disputes to settle, let them mediate. Do -not- encourage violence as a means of settling scores. There is a reason this act is named the Civilised Persons Act, friends....We, in this city, must set the standard. I do not. Zanbor Emerson: I assume Senator Shadesong means a point of information? Which has been declined by the speaker. Please continue Senator. Laeran Dawnstrike: Too long has violence been the norm in our world. We are locked in a state of near constant war, simply because it is necessary. In our civilian lives, let justice, diplomacy, and mediation rule our lives....not merely remaining the exploited appendage of our so-called protectors. Civility, Senators...not petty vengeance. Zanbor Emerson: Senator Stahl. You have the floor. Alrenna Stahl: I've two points to point out tonight, the first being the case of honor duels. I personally despise the use of violence as a method of solving differences and arguments but I feel as if banning it entirely would solve nothing, instead forcing those who wish to duel into continuing to do so regardless. I believe we should instead regulate and set strict rules and guidelines when it comes to these situations, allowing duels but only with strict supervision and specific rules set to the duel, we could even introduce a cost for requesting a duel, both parties required to pay the city to take part in a duel, resulting in us perhaps turning a profit from this and further putting people off dueling one another to prove a point. Elberich Haltring: Point of information, Mister Speaker. Zanbor Emerson: Does the senator yield for a point of information? Let the record show she nodded in the affirmative. Elberich Haltring: This bill is not going to ban all duels. It is just banning "Honor Duels". As I mentioned for the Minister of War, members of the Senate are still able to Spar in order to hone their skills, but we should not allow violence as a way to resolve disputes when we can do it with words as we are now. Secondly, regulation for Honour Duels is practically impossible. There will always be new circumstances that will require new laws, the editing of other laws, and the repeal of others. These duels are unpredictable from what we've seen in the past, and there is no way to prepare for future duels through legislation or regulation. Zanbor Emerson: The floor is still yours Senator Stahl. Does the senator yield for a point of information? Alrenna Stahl: Speak your mind. Oliviaxi Shadesong: Using the logic of the Minister, if we accept that needing to amend hypothetical legislation overseeing honor duels, we ought also to never affirm this bill, or any such law. The legal process is just that, a process. I am wholly willing to stand for more legislation surrounding honor duels, because I think legislating something that I consider having occasional merit is better than outright disbarring it. Zanbor Emerson: Members should know that points of information are for asking questions or answering a question. Senator Stahl please continue. Alrenna Stahl: Secondly, the bill decreeing that sentient life be it plant-life or animal should be further discussed, refined and the creatures falling under this law pin-pointed. You might say a Root-lasher is sentient, yet they do little more than sit in ambush for prey or stalk the wilds, wrapping their victims and crushing them in their grasp for nutrients to grow. These creatures are hardly sapient, merely living to fill their bellies and to provide the world with their offspring. These creatures however contain valuable reagents to alchemy, enchanting and much more. I simply request that the bill be taken another careful look at. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. The speaking list is now closed to new speakers. Senator Dawnstrider is next. Vorien Dawnstrider: Thank you, Mister Speaker. If you are all so eager to kill one another, I suggest you take it to the Arena in Stranglethorn, the Goblins might even be willing to pay you for it. But we are a city of laws, and such barbaric activities have no place here. Zanbor Emerson: Senator Skyblast. Nymtink Skyblast: I think we're blowing this honor duel thing way out of proportion. Honor duels exist for a reason. Using the word "barbaric" to describe it is emotional and a matter of opinion. I believe the point should be to keep the duels out of the city, to prevent damage and injury of innocents and bystanders. Are we not mages, or friends of mages? Port somewhere uninhabited and have at it. Be adults, and deal with your problems without involving governing parties to teach you how to be one. Secondly, this bill is obviously not ready for a vote. We could spend hours debating every word of it, so I vote that more postings of conversation about this bill take place via Senate memos until it is ready. That is all. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. Senator Shadesong. Oliviaxi Shadesong: Moving from the issue of Honor Duels, of which I'm sure we're sick of. Another point not addressed is the implications of the improper use of 'sentience' in the first act of the bill. That will cause problems. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. Senator Blackrune. You are the last speaker. Elberich Haltring: Point of information, Mister Speaker. Oliviaxi Shadesong: Not doing it. Zanbor Emerson: Senator Blackrune please go ahead. Kores Blackrune: Thank you. I just wanted to say how much you all beat the Honor duel ram to death. If there are those of you who wish to continue having honor duels, I recommend looking into other races outside of your elven and human groups and see how they keep honor duels not an issue you spend who knows how long debating. It really isn't complicated, especially for us who are supposed to be the scholarly types. That is all. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. Debate is now closed. There is no vote tonight. Senator Rainfire please take the floor. You are being given a pay raise. Congratulations. Lenyae Rainfire: Thank you, I will continue to represent this fine chamber. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. Senator Dawnstrike please take the floor. You are being given a pay raise. Congratulations. Laeran Dawnstrike: Selama thas'anore. For Dalaran. Zanbor Emerson: Thank you. Senator Manderly please take the floor. Senator Manderly. I like you. You get your work done and you don't bother me. That cannot be said about many of the others in this chamber. I sincerely congratulate you on your promotion. Valecian Amatin: Speaker, if I may...erm...speak when you are finished. Zanbor Emerson: This session is ad- I suppose... Valecian Amatin: I propose that in future session we deactivate the communication system so that certain discussions are left outside of such a professional atmosphere. And to spare those of us with migraine issues and or short patience for their nonsense. That is all. Zanbor Emerson: I agree. Thank you. Senator Shadesong please meet me in my office. This session is adjourned. Category:Magus Senate of Dalaran Category:Senate Sessions Category:Minutes Category:Documents Category:Events